Of course, this objection becomes a problem for Protestants since by this standard, many of their doctrine like sola scriptura, eternal security, sola fide would also arrive too late in church history to count as being apostolic. Well, not necessarily. I know not man. Its the same Greek words that Mary says when she says, I know not man.. St. Jerome, who was skeptical of the manuscript history behind these books, even tells us that at the Council of Nicaea the deuterocanonical work of Judith was considered part of the canon of Scripture. I cant go into that in detail here in the answer, but I might talk about it in a future podcast episode. If so, if it was an eyewitness account, why hasnt the Catholic church dogmatically declared whether or not she died first? Okay. Its nice to be able to go through all of these scripture passages. Does the Bible say that every human person without exception has been conceived in original sin? The connection of apologetics with evangelism is best summarized by Oxford theologian Alister E. McGrath: " So its not saying that he died. Communication, Canon, and Unbeliever Knowledge of God, Reformed Apologist (Ronald W. Di Giacomo). First, ancient Jews kept their books in a series of scrolls and not in a single book, so its anachronistic to say this refers to the table contents in a book. So lets just stick to scripture. If you like todays episode, become a premium subscriber at our Patreon page and get access to member only content. Im not sure. "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" - Psalm 139: 13,16 I always wanted to have five kids, but I met and married my . Thanks for being a supporter mate. Sure. GANYARD: It sure is, George. For example, it may be a reference to the minor prophet Zechariah (who was killed in the temple according to the Targum on Lamentations) as opposed to the Zechariah in Chronicles. Steve Christie also has his own website. It was only four yards short of the all-time NFL record. And again, in Sirach chapter 18, I think its verse 17 in the Septuagint uses this same Greek word, but in the masculine to refer to man being full of grace as [inaudible 01:21:46] and obviously Trent and I would agree that it doesnt mean that way. In fact, Protestants believe in many doctrines that are not found in scripture like their 66 book cannon of scripture where that public revelation ended in the first century. Lets talk about the perpetual virginity of Mary. Okay. Gordon Clark - Christian philosopher, apologist, and theologian. Suppose we discovered the actual cross Jesus had been crucified on. On the one hand he could show the Bible teaches the opposite of these dogmas regarding Mary as an individual. This is the number one downloaded Catholic app in the app store, and it is the best app Ive ever used ever. Mary did not need to be immaculate conceived since sin is not a trait that is passed down physically, but a spiritual condition. Before the 2001 regular season, Christie was placed on IR from an offseason groin injury having accuracy problems during the preseason being replaced by Jake Arians prior to the start of the season. Just like that Scripture includes things within it that are not necessarily scientifically accurate, scriptures without error. No. Geoffrey Stephen Christie (born November 13, 1967)[1] is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League (NFL), who, as a member of the Buffalo Bills, became known for his ability to kick clutch field goals, even in poor weather. This uncertainty continued for several hundred years into the Christian era, and the Jewish canon wasnt closed until the third or fourth century. Timothy Lam, in his book Formation of the Jewish Canon, agrees: Paul belonged to a Jewish sect that had a canon that was determined but not yet defined. Jesus does not rebuke her. And another is a partial contradiction, such as the dogma of Jehovahs Witnesses on the identity of Jesus. 1644440684524367. steve.christie@phmloans.com. The only son? What plunged mankind into the fall was Adams sin, which resulted in Adam and by extension all of mankind, including Mary, physically dying. It sounds like you are using it for your view of Jesus in a very unique way. Click the link in the description below to go through to the greatest Catholic prayer and meditation app on the planet. And thats why I went [inaudible 01:47:13] and why I argued, how is it used specifically in the New Testament? Type it in. But its still the first movie. Yeah. Were going to move into seven-minute rebuttals. This is known as [inaudible 01:09:50]. (Hebrews 11:35b, 2 Maccabees 6,7), Is the Apocrypha or Deutero-Canonical Books Part of the Bible? And if you look into church history, these dogmas were not all agreed upon. And I already cited Greek scholars like Bill Mounce and New Testament scholars, like Richard Bauckham, who agree with me that adelphi has a broader semantic range than what Steve has brought up here. H. So our listeners can go there to read that. She goes on to say, My spirit rejoices in God, my savior for or because he has regarded the lowest state of his handmaiden. Mary then describes how God saves people from threats in this life by exalting the lowly or feeding the hungry. While Jesus was conceived by the holy spirit, the Psalmists wrote, In sin, my mother conceived me. Echoed later by the apostle Paul all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The Greek word translated all [foreign language 00:08:51] translated everyone, which includes Mary in her conception, but obviously not Jesus since scripture explicitly states, Jesus was without sin. And there, we would just debate about whether sacred tradition is a plausible source of divine revelation. And it all goes down to the authority of Scripture. Heres my thought on that. A person could be a Protestant, because we have to understand what a Protestant is and we have to go back to the Reformation for it. Yeah. Athanasius likewise calls Wisdom and Judith Scripture and appeals to Wisdom 7:25-27 as evidence for the deity of Christ. In fact, the Bible often speaks about things like human sinfulness or human mortality as a universal truth and those things really are universal, but it doesnt always mention the exceptions that do occur to these universal rules. Ive addressed some of them, but Ill address those other points hes brought up in my next rebuttal period. I think it says a lot about you all that you would take your time, all 735 of you, to be here. Themissionof Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. And as Jimmy Akin has pointed out, if Mary needed to be sinless in order to give birth to the Messiah, then her mother would have to be sinless and her mother would have to be sinless all the way back to Eve and so it doesnt work. And Steve has said, Well, we know theres an exception because the Bible says that Jesus is the exception. So clearly, then, that means the Bible can make universal statements, but sources of divine revelation can give us those exceptions. Do you still have it? So he would be referred to as the son of Joseph sometimes. 15. Christie scored 163 points for the Bucs in 1990-91 and became an NFL free agent after two seasons, signing a free agent contract in 1992 with the Buffalo Bills. Id have to respond individually. So for example, if a Protestant listens to todays debate and agrees with Trent and Calvin and Luther that Mary didnt have children, could he still, in your view, be a good Protestant Christian? This means Mary was earthy like Adam, before she was heavenly once Jesus redeemed and delivered her. No, Im not saying that the use of the definite article means that Mary had only one child. Let me ask you this, was Jesus Christ free from sin? Even if Mary were speaking of salvation from sin, she may be speaking about God, preventing her from sinning and saving her in that way, like we might say how a doctor saved someone from a disease by vaccinating them, rather than by giving them a pill to cure them after the infection. So lets tie all of this up a little bit. The experience of over thirty years of singing professionally has taught him how to tune into the lover that lives in us all. My point in that its not the definite article that is interesting, the son of Mary. I mean, focusing on it saying that they had the same mothers is a little bit of a strawman because thats an argument that youre using which I feel is really irrelevant because you could use the argument that Jesus had younger half sisters because theres nothing in that passage to eliminate that possibility. Well, whats interesting is that Steve actually had very good objections to some of these arguments. So my point would be that if we would show that devotion to the means through which Jesus died, why wouldnt we show that similar devotion through the means by which Jesus was born? Did I have one other thing here? Hence, if anyone shall dare to think otherwise, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment, that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith and that he has been separated from the unity of the church. Had Adam not sinned he would be alive today, as well as Mary had she not inherited Adam sin nature, a view shared by Catholic Answers and the Second Council of Orange. Morgan Stanley, +4 more. But in his encyclical, [foreign language 00:20:13] Pope Pius the 12 said Mary is the new Eve who is free from all sin original or personal. Does the Bible say that Mary herself committed a personal sin or that she inherited original sin? Does the Bible ever say Mary was not assumed into heaven? But I think Steve would agree the word adelphos typically means a person has the same biological father and mother and of course, Steve doesnt believe that because he believes Jesus has no biological father. The importance of discussing these Marian dogma is more than merely to debate them. Theres no divine judgment on Mary in any form described here in Mark chapter three. Christie then nailed a 32-yard field goal in overtime, sending the Bills to 5-4 on the season. Instead, these manuscripts contain the deuterocanonical books, and they correspond to the Church councils of this era such as Hippo and Carthage that also affirmed the inspiration of these books. Do you? Because as Steve agreed with me in this debate, the Greek word adelphos can mean adoptive sibling or half sibling. And you, just so people are aware, arent being mean or anything by doing that. They wanted people following scripture even if they were wrong. When Mary said, I know not man, in Luke 1:34, does this indicate a vow of perpetual virginity? Im not saying that Jesus is the son of Mary means that shes the only person he bore. So before she could go into heaven and have a heavenly body, she had to be rid of them, and thats why the apostle Paul says that we were like Adam and we also, which includes Mary, we also are heavenly. Okay. Thats right. It refers to a natural sister as well or a biological [inaudible 01:15:42]. Christie also served as an analyst for The Score Television Network. like conceived, why would Joseph and their kinsfolk who knew her think that her pregnancy was a result of adultery? Two individuals share the same biological mother and father? I was wrong there. It is not considered inspired. I dont know how you would feel. After all Ive done for you, and you just sit there, you watch this, you dont click that thumbs up button. The Pharisees did not have unique doctrinal authority over all other Jews since, Jesus said the Pharisees shared the seat of Moses with the scribes (Matt. Trent models that approach each. Influenced early on by early monasticism, asceticism, and even gnostic-like texts, early Roman Catholics were troubled by how a created sinful fallen creature went on to have other children and could give birth to the sinless Son of God in the flesh. One, ones natural sister, such as a sister of the same parents or a half sister or, two, a believing sister, such as a Christian sister. Hes simply talking about Jesus being the firstborn. Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. This passage also contradicts the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary since Jesus mother was with Jesus brothers in verses 20 to 21, when they accused him of being out of his senses. When it came to the immaculate conception, Steve did not really put forward any argument to show Mary sinned herself. It is used this way consistently in the New Testament, as well as in the Septuagint where it is used over a hundred times, such as the Sister Kingdoms of Israel and Judah who worship the same one true God of the Old Testament. Yeah, no, Im grateful for Steve to take part in this. Im trying to appeal to Catholic guilt, but its not working. Okay. Mary was able to do something that Jesus didnt. For example, although Josephus seems to defend what is equivalent to the Protestant canon, scholars recog-nize his propensity for exaggeration. The Protestant Old Testament canon is also not what we find in the oldest manuscripts of the Bible, such as codex Sinaticus and codex Vaticanus, which date from the fourth century after Christ. That she was conceived without original sin? If you guys could try to keep your answers to about two minutes each. (Horn V. Christie) About Ap315: The mission of Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. Im a little disturbed about the comment about anything in Scripture being in error, because if we cannot trust that when it says about Jesus being our savior and rising from the dead. Thank you very much. Steve Hays (1959-2020) We just learned that Steve Hays has passed away in a hospice. Your generous donations are tax-deductible. When Trent tries to use this argument, hes using a logical fallacy referred to as the argument by exception. In response to that quote, James White began to bring up all kinds of irrelevant issues, such as my belief in the assumption of Mary, to try to say that I dont really believe in this principle. And so I think what I have shown is that all of these arguments that Steve has raised to try to show scripture contradicts the Marian Dogmas, it does no such thing. Jesus is never referred to as a preemptive savior, but as a redeeming, delivering savior, which includes redeeming and delivering Mary from her sins. Steve, where can people learn more about you and the good stuff youve done? Yeah, no, fair enough. Well, the answer to the question needs to be in relation to applying it elsewhere in scripture because theres a lot of people that are mentioned in scripture that doesnt say that they had any children. It is often said, in order to detect a counterfeit bill, you dont study other counterfeit bills, but instead you first study the genuine thing, then youll be able to detect a counterfeit easily. And I think thats something that we do find. Yes, and Christie admits they did, though he thinks we can discern which Jews had the correct canon of Scripture. Trent, did you want to-. So final question I have for each of you, well start with Steve and then Trent. If you want to go more into that, my book, The Case for Catholicism has a chapter on the immaculate conception. So I think that is highly significant theres something very, very special about Mary in the way that its used along with the words definition. Can a person die? I have to say, maybe, and Trent brought this up in the debate, when it talks about the brothers and sisters of Jesus and using adelphoi to mean that it always means biological brother. Well, in my own personal journey of faith, I think I had some difficulties with the immaculate conception of Mary and Marys bodily assumption, but I think I was able to move through those difficulties by broadening my understanding of what is the ultimate source of authority for Christians that its not Sola scriptura because the Bible itself doesnt even teach that. And more importantly, thats not what we are debating. Defenders Media provides media solutions to an alliance of evangelistic ministries that defend the Christian worldview. There is no exception there. Okay. Are you talking about 19 probably later, after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, I know not Oh, the ones that have not known a man? Steve Christie also has his own website. Thats all I wanted to say. So Im not going to comment on that. It is not mentioned in any book of the Bible, protocanonical or deuterocanonical, nor in any ancient nonbiblical witnesses such as Josephus or Philo. Rather, biblically the church is every individual sinner who God has redeemed out of the world to be a slave to our master and Lord Jesus Christ, every individual sinner. The point I want to raise there is that adelphi has the same semantic range as adelphos. As a believing Jew and Christian, Mary would not have disobeyed God who commanded married couples to be fruitful and multiply, nor would she have deprived her husband as the apostle Paul wrote, the wife must fulfill her duty to her husband and does not have authority over her own body so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self control. 1 Corinthians 7:3-5.. None of the authors of the deuterocanonical books refer to a delineated list of writings (Hebrew, Ketuvim) within a closed Hebrew canon that did not include their own works. I run morning podcasts here on locals. And Catholics are very clear, we do not believe anything that contradicts what we find in sacred Scripture. In order to justify that claim, Christie would have to present a standard that tells us what writings prior to Christ are inspired and why we should accept that particular standard. As Trent Horn stated in his debate against Dr. James White, Our theology should come from the Bible, not the Bible from our theology. Thats Sola Scriptura, folks, and I agree with him as did the Apostle Paul and the first century Roman Church. Okay. In 2004, Christie was signed by the Jacksonville Jaguars to put some pressure on struggling rookie Josh Scobee. Thanks for correcting me on that, Trent. According to Dead Sea scholar Emanuel Tov, There is a special layout for poetical units that is almost exclusive to biblical texts (including Ben Sira) and is not found in any of the nonbiblical poetical compositions from the Judean desert (Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, 102-103). Christie claims the Hebrew canon was closed by Ezra and other learned men at an event called the Great Synagogue. For example, in Psalm 69:5, it says of the Messiah, Oh God thou knowist my folly. It just means somebody is wrong, whether it be me or another person who calls themselves Protestant that accepts these things. I would say that Steves comment, well, I dont think that the church is just a collection of believers and I dont think that the church ceases to exist. Although I first heard of Greg Koukl as an undergrad at Biola University in the mid 90s, we became good friends in the early 2000s as students in the M.A. Removing this book will also remove your associated ratings, reviews, and reading sessions. So unlike Twitter and YouTube, Im not going to get banned from saying the sorts of things I say that go against secular dogma. Marys special, unique status and her being mother of God is something throughout the fathers, definitely. Alright what about the Immaculate Conception? I have two chapters on it in my book, The Case for Catholicism. Alright? It can only mean figurative sister or biological sister. Yeah. Trent had mentioned about, Well, it could mean sister-in-law. Well, the apostle John actually quoted from the Old Testament, from the Septuagint, frequently. Since I dont believe in the unbiblical doctrine of sola scriptura, I dont have to prove these dogmas from scripture alone. It comes from agoyforJesus who Im now beginning to assume is your co-laborer. Though I will say, as were going through them, I feel like Steves case is sort of like that tree in front of my house is a bush Im always trying to get just right, but they end up clipping so many parts off of it, its just a bunch of empty branches sitting there. So here, Mary can be talking about salvation from threats in this life, not sin. Therefore when Mark 6:3 refers to Jesus brothers and sisters not honoring him, we know this refers to Jesus younger half siblings. So to summarize then Steve Well, actually lets see. 18. Please try again later. In week 7 vs. the San Diego Chargers, Christie kicked a 29-yard field goal with just :11 seconds to play, forcing the game into overtime. Yeah. Oh, its for me? And I think we both agree on the assumption, Steve said it the Bible does not say Mary was not assumed into heaven, and in order to try to show her assumption would contradict it, we had to use a very speculative argument about that she did not need to be rescued from death, even though that doesnt apply to every case where God would take someone into heaven. Well, why would I believe that Marys parents-. If righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died needlessly. Galatians 2:21. And the same is true for Mary. You got five minutes, right? On July 2, 2007, Christie joined the Toronto Argonauts of the Canadian Football League by signing a practice roster agreement with the team. And even there, he admitted it doesnt explicitly talk about Mary. Good day, Steve. So thats also a bad argument. The earliest source sharing in this view that she died first is from the Dormition. My colleague, Tim Staples, has written an entire book on Mary called Behold Your Mother. The resolution for this debate is the Marian Dogmas contradict scripture. Thank you very much, Trent. The 33-yard field goal came with just :35 to play, giving the Bills a win over the Titans, who had knocked them out of the playoffs the year before. And something else that the Pope says in the declaration is not infallible. I would love to have Augustine or Aquinas come down to my parish and give a talk or be a pastor there. Because the details about whether she died or not have not been given to us in the deposit of faith, that particular fact has not been given to us. Can a conclusion be infallible if the underlying logic is false? Then Psalm 69:5 is applied non literally to Jesus and I would say Psalm 69:8 about mothers and brethren is applied non literally as well. So again, argument by exception. I didnt talk about sister-in-law. Steve Ray is a Apologetics, Convert, Evangelist travelling from , Michigan. According to Old Testament scholar Otto Kaiser, the deuterocanonical books presuppose the validity of the Law and the Prophets and also utilize the Ketubim or Writings collection which was, at the time, still in the process of formation and not yet closed (Old Testament Apocrypha, 2). Now, as I said, we do find this in other roughly contemporary literature. It is because of my tremendous love and respect for the Mary of God [inaudible 01:48:45] Scripture, that I felt the responsibility to point out that the Mary of Roman Catholicism is not the same as the Mary of the Word of God. But I mean, some of the early ones, Id probably Definitely not Judas Iscariot. This question comes from agoyforJesus. Sorry, let me go back a little bit here with this. . So do it. So these Marian Dogmas are not optional or fitting for the faithful Catholic to believe, but are required and binding to the Catholic to remain in good standing in communion with the Roman Catholic church, despite them all contradicting God breathed scripture. Not just on the Marian dogmas, but also regarding salvation. First, Christies argument for the Pharisees canon being identical to modern Protestant Old Testament comes from a selective quotation from my colleague Jimmy Akin. If she was immaculately conceived, wouldnt she have known that she was the version from Isaiah 7:14? In his work The Bible is a Catholic Book, Akin notes of the Pharisees canon that the boundaries of this collection were still somewhat fuzzy. Well, theres Pokemon The First Movie, and it was so bad, there were no other movies. Since he is the uncreated sinless deity conceived by the holy spirit. The Pharisees had unique teaching authority in Israel, and the Pharisees canon was essentially the same as the Protestant Old Testament canon. Well, the Septuagint was a Greek translation that was finished around 134 BC. Also the Greek word for brother, its not always you to represent full brothers. For example, a Mormon dogma that says that Jesus is not God contradicts scripture explicitly, such as in John 20:28, when Thomas sees Jesus and calls him, My Lord and my God. Implicitly would be liberal Catholics and Protestants who condone abortion, which contradicts scripture stating that life begins at conception, and scripture condemns the shedding of innocent blood. Second Samuel 6:23 says, Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to or eos the day of her death. Which of course she did not have children after she died. Jesus in a hospice very good objections to some of the definite article that is interesting the. 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